Lay on, Macduff, and welcome back to the Wheel of Time Reread Redux!
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 16 and 17 of The Eye of the World, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time reread is also now available as an ebook series, except for the portion covering A Memory of Light, which should become available soon.
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 16: The Wisdom
Redux Commentary
I’m rather irritated at myself of five years ago for the commentary on this chapter (all three sentences of it, heh), because my snark about not getting Lan’s attraction to Nynaeve is both terribly uncharitable and, I think, unconsciously sexist as well.
Like I’ve said before, I am just as prey to unconscious bias as anyone if I don’t watch out for it. And the thing is, Nynaeve’s character, especially as she’s presented in the early books, is practically tailor-made to trigger every subconscious stereotype of “bossy,” “overbearing,” “bitchy,” “uppity” women we have been trained to abhor since childhood, and it is not cool that I (and many other readers, I know) instinctively disliked her for it. Because I sincerely believe that had Nynaeve been a male character and done exactly the same things she did in this chapter as a woman, then the descriptive words I/we would have been overwhelmingly more likely to put to (him) would be, instead, “assertive,” “self-confident,” and “takes no shit,” and I/we would have applauded (him) for refusing to be cowed by Moiraine, Lan, and Thom’s intimidation tactics and their blatant refusal to come clean about their true objectives.
Because, let’s be real here, Moiraine and Lan (and Thom) come off shady as all hell in this chapter, not just from Nynaeve’s perspective but from anyone’s perspective who has a lick of sense in them. Even if we didn’t know from hindsight that Moiraine is not being completely up front here about what her actual objective is, it’s perfectly obvious anyway that she is not saying everything she knows, and in context Nynaeve is actually perfectly justified in calling bullshit on her, well, bullshit.
And yet, on first reading I hated her for that.
Part of the reason for that (the legitimate part) is that, like Mat, I identified her as An Obstacle To The Plot, for which it is completely reasonable to dislike her no matter how benign her intentions are. But I really do have to wonder how much of the rest of it was my culturally-ingrained instinct to want her to just shut up and not assert herself because that’s just not what Proper Ladies do. An instinct, incidentally, reinforced by her admission to Rand that she took matters into her own hands when the (male) Council of Emond’s Field deadlocked on what to do about the matter. Like, how dare she, right, and yet, given what we know of the parallel (and equal) power structure of the Council and the Women’s Circle, she was not actually out of line to make the decision that she did. So my mental condemnation of her for that was, in fact, out of line.
[Lan:] “If you can follow a trail I have tried to hide, he taught you well. Few can do that, even in the Borderlands.”
Abruptly Nynaeve buried her face in her cup. Rand’s eyes widened. She was blushing. Nynaeve never showed herself even the least bit disconcerted. Angry, yes; outraged, often; but never out of countenance. But she was certainly red-cheeked now, and trying to hide in the wine.
Aw.
And yet I suggested, in my original commentary, that her assertiveness and, yes, even aggression in this chapter makes her inherently unattractive. And that is seriously not cool, and I’m ashamed of myself for it.
So, yeah. Bad Leigh. No coffee.
*whimper*
“The sparks, Rand. She met Mistress Alys coming in, and there were sparks, with just the two of them. Yesterday I couldn’t see sparks without at least three or four of you together, but today it’s all sharper, and more furious.” She looked at Rand’s friends, waiting impatiently, and shivered before turning back to him. “It’s almost a wonder the inn doesn’t catch fire. You’re all in more danger today than yesterday. Since she came.”
Rand glanced at his friends. Thom, his brows drawn down in a bushy V, was leaning forward on the point of taking some action to hurry him along. “She won’t do anything to hurt us,” he told Min. “I have to go, now.”
And it says something, doesn’t it, that with all of Rand’s fear of and nervousness around Nynaeve, that he doesn’t question for a moment that her ultimate goal is to protect them. We may want to see where Moiraine takes Our Heroes for story reasons, but Nynaeve is not at all unreasonable for (correctly) divining that sticking with Moiraine is going to put them in a shitload of danger. Especially since there is no way to know for sure that her assertion that they are in less danger with her than not is not completely untrue, especially from Nynaeve’s point of view.
And all things considered, was she even wrong? Discuss!
Chapter 17: Watchers and Hunters
Redux Commentary
Contra the previous, I am still amused by my original commentary on this chapter:
Ah, Whitecloaks: Just like Jehovah’s Witnesses, except instead of pamphlets, they want to give you grievous bodily harm. Awesome.
I got a kick out of how many people in the comments seemed to take this as a slight on Jehovah’s Witnesses, when in fact it was pretty much the opposite of that. Freedom of speech (and pamphlets) is awesome even when it’s annoying; freedom to be the Spanish Inquisition, not so much. I will put up with annoying people condemning me verbally all day if it means that I don’t have psychotic people putting hot irons on me for, apparently, any reason whatsoever.
Sure, I’d like the annoying pamphlet people to realize that they are Wrong and I am Right, but since I recognize that they think the exact same thing about me, I feel like as long as it doesn’t degenerate into actual violence that we can all agree to disagree and it will probably all get sorted out in the theoretical afterlife. But autonomous fanatical military bodies torturing people at will across international borders to comply with their religious views—i.e. Whitecloaks—is complete and total bullshit and a world of No, and that, I will fight to my dying breath. Because No.
As for my confusion over the Jolly Blue Giant thing, in retrospect I don’t know why I was so confused, since it seems obvious to me now that Moiraine made her illusion just look like she was stepping over the gate, while she herself just slipped through it in the normal fashion. Duh.
“Now, the greatest of the Hunters is Rogosh of Talmour, Rogosh Eagle-eye, famed at the court of the High King, feared on the slopes of Shayol Ghul…”
People have speculated for forever about the names of various characters in WOT and what they are (or might be) referring to, especially historical or legendary characters. But it’s interesting that as far as I know, no one has ever offered a possible real-world reference for Rogosh Eagle-Eye, even though it completely feels like there should be one. To me, anyway. But Googling “Talmour” only comes up with links to WOT sites, and Googling “Rogosh” tells me that it is either the name of a glacier, a town in Bulgaria, or a villainous character in Mission: Impossible, none of which seem very likely references.
It seems logical to suppose that there must be some mythological character out there with crazy good eyesight that Jordan could have gotten a hero nicknamed “Eagle Eye” from, but at first the only such “mythical” character I could think of was, er, Hawkeye from Marvel comics, which… I also rather doubt was Jordan’s inspiration, though I suppose it’s possible. Then I remembered that one of the Argonauts in Greek mythology was supposed to have ridiculously good eyesight as well, but it turns out it was this guy, Lynceus, who besides having a name that is nothing at all like “Rogosh,” was also kind of a complete douchebag who murdered another guy (Castor) to steal his girl. Not exactly an inspiration for the kind of hero Rogosh apparently was. Other than that I’m drawing a blank.
Thom also mentions in this chapter that Rogosh went to visit “Blaes of Matuchin,” who is apparently a queen (or lady?) who told the Dark One to go screw himself even though she was “marked for him,” whatever that means, and whose name also totally sounds like it should be a reference to something. Linda Taglieri over at The Thirteenth Depository notes that Blaes “was one of the three just Knights of King Arthur’s court in the Welsh tales, who dedicated himself to preserving justice according to earthly law,” which I… guess could be the reference, but it seems awfully obscure to me if so.
Lastly, as long as I’m obsessing over this, we learn much later in the series that Rogosh had a lover named Dunsinin, which I can only assume is a reference to Dunsinane Hill, which is the site of an ancient fort in Scotland, and got a mention in Shakespeare’s Macbeth. Which is also kind of an iffy possible reference, since I can’t see any immediate symbolic connection there (the literal translation of the name is “hill of ants”, which, okay then).
Sooo, in conclusion, maybe the reason no one’s ever found a definitive reference for Rogosh and Co. is because there just aren’t any. It wasn’t like it was a rule that all of Jordan’s character names had to be mythical or historical shoutouts, after all. Indeed, given the sheer number of names he ended up coming up with, as a official purveyor of Fantastical Stuff, it’s actually perfectly reasonable that once in a while he just made something the hell up.
And that’s what I got for now, O My Peeps. Next week is Thanksgiving for us Americans, but as of now I still plan to have a post up for next Tuesday, so I’ll see you then! Cheers!
Closest I can think of is Robin Hood …but that’s not all that close, especially since the other related names don’t tie to RH either (although Sherwood Forest and Shayol Ghul might be related if we squint hard enough….).
Well, Nynaeve annoyed me at first as well, but this was really before the internet and Feminist Frequency put me more in touch with the realities women face. I mean, I still love boobs but I do realize how ridiculous it is that they are plastered all over everything, yet, I still can’t bring myself around on Nynaeve here. I adore her later, but that was mostly around WH when she left Mat behind and became Rand’s most loyal friend and ally.
I don’t think I really like the jackass guys to be fair either, if Mat lost the comedy at the start I would just find him tedious and a jerk. So, I do not ascribe positive stereotypes to men in this situation either, so I guess I am fair at least.
Hi all! *waves*
I never had a problem with Nynaeve – the kids she watched grow were in trouble, she takes it upon herself to go after them. Which is kind of amazing. And it says a lot about Lan’s character when he admires her for her skills first.
She took her over as the Wisdom when she was quite young, and you have to appreciate the fact that she was handed a big responsibility and -at the same time, she was expected to fail at it due to her age. So, I think Nynaeve was very used to asserting herself (by bullying) over people who were twice or thrice her age, and who doubted her. This falls well into place when she stands up to Moiraine.
I actually liked Nynaeve although I was surprised at Lan I didn’t take him for being so forward thinking but his background was later explained. That trail aspect is what hooked me in there being more to her character than being bossy. I loved Jordan for fleshing her out a bit.
I think I found it! Seems like a stretch, but here it is:
Eagle Scouts have an association devoted to service, called the Knights of Dunamis. The word Dunamis comes from the Greek meaning power or spirit. Here is a partial quote from the website – “Founders felt that young men seeking a meaningful purpose in life fulfilled many of the same requirements of the Knights of Old… Sir Galahad…The Knights code stressed honor to his country, the preparation to defend it from any enemy….”
Agreed there is nothing about the hunters (but they are scouts!), but there is court of the king, the eagle reference, defending their country and Dunsinin which sounds like Dunamis..
I always loved Nyneave. At least I’m pretty sure I did ;) There are times she could legitatmely be called bossy but I thought she was pretty badass for trailing them and I liked that she kind of subverted the gentle healer stereotype (I say that now, but I don’t have a lot of documentation from when I first read it, so false memories maybe). She’s actually probably one of my all-time favorites, maybe aside from Verin.
I remember being annoyed at Nynaeve as a teenager–possibly she reminded me too much of my bossy, hot-tempered older sister–but I reread the books lately for the Hugo voting and found myself loving her from the get-go. She’s hot-tempered, sure, but she mostly manages to channel her temper in productive ways. She reacts with anger to people in power, but to vulnerable people she’s kind and compassionate. She didn’t just ride off leaving Emond’s Field without a Wisdom, either–she arranged for someone to cover for her, then went to rescue her lost villagers when no one else would. Hero material from the get-go.
Leigh wrote: “And the thing is, Nynaeve’s character, especially as she’s presented in the early books, is practically tailor-made to trigger every
subconscious stereotype of “bossy,” “overbearing,” “bitchy,” “uppity”
women …”
I will disgree with Leigh and others in an imporrtant assumption that Leigh’s quote makes — that at some point in the series, Nynaeve stops being bossy, overbearing, bitchy and uppity. IMO, she is that way right up until her last speaking scene in the series — Nynaeve cornering Aviendha beacause, as Nyneave herself tells Aviendha, Aviendha has 2 broken feet and cannot avoid Nynaeve.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
Hi folks. I’m new to the Re-read Redux. *waves at everybody*
Mary Beth @7–It wasn’t a case of nobody else in Emond’s Field would go. They were just taking too long (in Nynaeve’s opinion) to decide exactly what to do & who to (maybe) send. So she decided to head on out herself.
Heh. So often earlyNynaeve just bugs the heck out of me. She does cool stuff, like the tracking (& impressing Lan). And nice stuff, like when Rand realizes that she knows he’s not Tam & Kari’s biological child and she tells him how much they love(d) him. But too many times I end up rolling my eyes at her. She does get better, though.
OK, I admit it. I didn’t like Nynaeve AT ALL in the begininng. She reminded me so much of a girl in my class in grade school…the bossy bully. So she pushed all my childish emo buttons.
As an older and wiser adult, having fought in few sexist corporate office wars, I can certainly relate to her need for assertion, but she goes about it in a very confrontational and annoying way. There are some people that can challenge and assert themselves in a most charming and effective way. Nynaeve isn’t one of them.
Thought. This Blaes…perhaps another lifetime of Verin???
Nynaeve was compensating for the constant slights about being “too young” for her position by being super aggressive and authoritarian. She did lose a good bit of the acerbic cast to her assertiveness as the series progressed (and she started to see herself as powerful without the need to prove it to others), but early on she was definitely both abbrasive and overbearing, and a male character in exactly that same situation would have been the same if exhibiting those same behaviors.
Like @7, my views on Nynaeve changed. I hated her reading for the first time as a teenager; I loved her re-reading the entire series as a 30-year-old. Some of that is from the benefit of knowing her personal growth over the story, but the bulk I think is from being closer to her age rather than closer to Rand et al.’s age. Rand’s comment quoted in the re-re-read foreshadows the mature relationship he and Nynaeve develop much later in the books. It may be my favorite relationship in the whole series (and Nynaeve-Lan might be number 2). Also, Nynaeve leaves her entire life behind to protect her four young charges and she never forgets her quest[b].[/b]
Hi All – I can’t believe I have 5 minutes to read and write a post! I am also a Nyneve lover, I think it’s astounding that she went up against an Aes Saidai of all people, tamping down her fear of what all the stories have said about Aes Saidai, in order to protect her Two Rivers family. I do think, however, that she was played a bit over the top in the initial stages, and that her hatred of Moiraine seemed to be somewhat misplaced and she was looking to just assign blame to someone (a la Gawyn towards Rand in the later books). But thankfully she does grow as a character as the books progress and there are plenty of other women whose morals I have had to question a bit more thoroughly as we get into the series. I never had a doubt about Nyneve.
Nynaeve’s hypocrisy and her refusal to admit she’s ever wrong are a big minuses for me no matter her gender. Ditto for her sexism, which is pretty clear even by WoT standards. I’ve never had a problem with her assertiveness and her standing up to Moiraine.
I also liked Nyneve from the beginning, even if she was a tad annoying and obstructionist at times. To me what mattered is that Nyneve could back up all her talk with extreme competence. She had high standards for others but she had even higher standards for herself and lived up to them. Now if she had been “An Obstacle To The Plot” due to stupidity or willful ignorance I would have seriously disliked her. But she was anything but stupid. Even learning that she had the ability to channel didn’t blind her to the realities of the situation or distract her from her goal of protecting the others. Now Lan, he might have been a bit distracting for her, but that’s understandable. :)
I don’t know. If Nynaeve were a guy, I wouldn’t call her a bitch, I’d call her an ass. Won’t change her being a bully. Won’t change her being outright dismissive of Rand and his peers and whatever they have to say. Granted some of the people in their village can tax one’s patience, but she goes right over the line and is downright abusive to others.
So yeah, an ass with a chip on his shoulder. Which Nynaeve definitely has anyway. That won’t change with her gender. It’s like the short boy always trying to talk big because he now has a position in the village.
I never considered her an obstacle to the plot. Fact is, I liked that she came in search of the boys(and girl). But at the same time, she abandoned her own duties in the Two Rivers to do so. To chase after four boys that were almost of age and one girl already considered an adult. Who by all accounts left of their own free will. Rand even had his father’s blessing. It’s like a fool’s quest. Not to obstruct the plot, but simply to emphasize her xenophobic lack of trust of outsiders and condescending lack of trust in those she considers her inferiors.
To be fair, I wasn’t too fond of Mat at this point either. He’s the boy who can’t sit still despite all instructions to the contrary. The one who’ll ruin everyone’s peace of mind.
Alreadymadwithboynynaeve @@@@@ 17 said Mat is “the boy who can’t sit still despite all instructions to the contrary. The one who’ll ruin everyone’s peace of mind.”
The above quote is still an accurate characterization of Mat at the end of the series. (Not that I am complaining because that is part of what makes Mat Mat — and makes him a fun character to read.)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
Count me among those who say yes to (almost) all of the above re the future Queen of Malkier resurgent.
She reminds me of a friend of mine, who is extremely smart, hypercompetent,has an acerbic tongue and does not suffer fools gladly, but always always, always has her friends’ backs.
She is a difficult person to get close to, and will tell you in no uncertain terms when you’ve made a wrong decision, but will move heaven and earth to see that justice is done for any friend that is wronged, and while she seems to be armored in steel, has a heart of pure diamond.
Her only problem is that she has yet to meet her Lan.
Jordan’s genius was developing Nynaeve’s character in the manner he did; she, out of all of them, remained herself throughout the books, only on a grander and deeper scale.
She is the only true adult in the bunch when the journey begins, and the manner in which her relationship develops with young Dupotamians as they grow into their destinies is just another exhibit of greatness of the WOT.
I think it’s later in the series when Nynaeve really starts to get under my skin. Not so much at this point in TEotW, or in the last few books where she accumulates a bundle of MOAs. It will be interesting to see how the pro/con Nynaeve discussion develops as we move through the books this time.
AndrewHB @18
End of the series Mat was at least competent, and could be relied upon to do the right thing. Start of the series Mat was nothing but a headache.
Jonellin Stonebreaker @19
See this is one big part of her hubris. This perception that she’s the only adult among those who left the Two Rivers at the start of the series. The only one she could count on to do things right. While it’s easy to mistake the boys because they’re often called boys, we keep forgetting that the three of them are all practically out of their teens. And Egwene was already wearing a braid and therefore traditionally an adult.
Mat might be a headache but it’s a measure of how much he stepped up over the rest of the series what sort of material was already there that only needed tempering. And of course Rand and Perrin were also both considered responsible for their age(except when Mat was around).
I’ve no doubt all those qualities you extolled are there, but let’s face it, Nynaeve at this point in time was entirely drunk on her own koolaid as the Village Wisdom.
I read these first Re-reads quickly, since I was doing a catch-up marathon. If I had taken the time, I would’ve taken Leigh to task.
Nynaeve did not remind me of my mother in particular, but her “bossy” and assertive actions were normal to me because of my mom. She was an early woman in her field and, although a young woman in a field of older white guys, outperformed most others in her company and with the competition.
Her motives were good, and Rand trusted her, and she impressed the Warder. Where is the issue?
For whatever reason I always pictured Rogosh Eagle-Eye as Audolphus from The Adventures of Baron Munchausen.
Hello Purnima.
And Nyneave never struck a chord with me. I always appreciated her trustworthy nature. It’s telling to me that she was arguably the only person Rand still trusted at the height of his paranoia and Taint fueled madness. He trusted her with the Choeden Kal too. Blunt to a fault, sure. overcompensates due to her age, definitely. Blind to some of her own issues, who isn’t? But still a great person who loved those in her care very much.
Nynaeve is not wrong, but she is also not right either. Yes, Moiraine cageyness is suspicious, but the fact that their village was attacked by Shadowspawn because of the boys prescence is not a problem that is solvable by bringing them back. Moiraine’s plan is really the only viable option despite her not telling what hr purpose is. and it n
It will. Did Min misunderstand her viewing?
re: Nynaeve
I didn’t like early Nynaeve for her abrasiveness, sexism, bullying and complete lack of self-awareness and while I mostly came around on my opinion of her in later books due to her growth as a person, I still very much dislike her early character. That being said, I never disliked her in this particular scene. “Bitch be crazy, but bitch be right and badass here” I thought back then, ignoring political correctness completely.
As a matter of fact, I find assertiveness, self-confidence and no-shit-take-yness very attractive in a woman, so I really kinda liked Nynaeve in this scene. Which is also why I understood what Lan saw in her. He usually didn’t get to see the character traits that made her unattractive to me in general. Those the Emond’s Fielders had to deal with mostly, not Lan.
And as for the sexist colored glasses, I’d like to point out that I disliked early Mat for very much the same reasons as I did Nynaeve. Mat just had the fortune of taking his level in badass a lot sooner than Nynaeve.
@23 CireNaes: Never heard of that… Looks like it’s a movie. Will look it up.
First, why does Chapter 16 have the leaf icon? Elsewhere, it’s used for the Tinkers (who follow the Way of the Leaf), Ogier (who plant groves), and the Green Man, all of which make sense; but what is its significance here?
‘There were so many tales to be told about each of the Hunters, and so many Hunters to tell of, that no two tellings were ever the same. The whole of it in one telling would a have taken week or more.’ I remember being struck by that line when I first read it. It reminds me of another well-known work….
Speaking of which, I find the idea of a Hunt of the Horn – that is, a hunt for a horn (and the glossary makes it clear that that’s what’s meant) – rather surprising, since normally a horn is something hunters carry. It’s also interesting that Gaidal Cain seems here to be one of the Hunters, when later he appears among the heroes whom the Horn summons.
Regarding the Whitecloaks: I find it odd that they are allowed to tramp around the place like this, given that they are in effect the armed forces of another country. Why does the Queen of Andor permit it?
I think Leigh missed the boat on the Whitecloaks. Their founder was Lothair Mantelar — clearly they were meant to be Lutherans. :) It’s strange that the Children of the Light come off so badly in the series. Despite the well-earned vituperation we’ll see directed at the Seanchan characters and their culture many Re-Reads from now, RJ gave them a certain nobility and even heroic potential. The Children, except for Galad later, remain profoundly unsympathetic.
Nynaeve’s heart is in the right place, but imagine having to spend a lot of time in her vicinity and having to deal with her temper, childishness and hypocrisy. On reread I am often amazed by Elayne’s patience in dealing with all that.
I’ve been reading all Leigh’s posts and the comments but haven’t posted in a while so I thought I should drop a line or two.
I am pretty much with Alreadymad and Bergmaniac re Nyneave early in the story (and later on on personal level). I too am someone who likes strong female characters in fiction and in RL. Eg. Moiraine is my favourite character in WOT, Dany in ASOIAF, and the better the social standing of women in a country the better it is, thus Scandinavia is the pinnacle of human society (other factors in play too, of course).
I.e. Nyn’s flaws are all her own and gender neutral. In fact it would’ve looked worse to me if a male character was acting in the way she was at this stage of the books.
Nevertheless, Nyneave, and other women in WOT, can be and are (I assume) criticized in the ways Leigh warns about and we should be wary of this. This is important so it doesn’t happen in real life.
AnotherAndrew @@@@@ 28
Good question about the WCs in Andor. Whilst their presence in Baerlon can be explained by its remoteness (despite its economic importance due to its mines) IIRC the WC were very prominent around Caemlyn too. I guess it’s a sign of Morgase’s weak position, in a number of ways, despite the fact that she could’ve cleared them if she really had to.
AnotherAndrew @28
They’re not exactly the armed forces of Amadicia. Amadicia as I understand it had a regular standing army of its own, though nowhere near the same quality as the Children.
It’s more like th ey were an army with a nation to call its own, rather than an army for a particular nation. But agreed, Morgase should have just had them run out with the Queen’s Guard.
@28 – My thought is the leaf icon is for Nynaeve as the Wisdom and user of plants.
I like Nyn in EOTW, especially when she acts in a cool way as in these chapters (tracking the boys, standing up to Moiraine, acknowledging Rand’s personal growth and comforting him. She gets extreme and aggravating later but it is because of her unyielding, unreasonable personality (on occasion) rather than her sex.
Baerlon is barely in Andor. Hell, the name Andor isn’t even mentioned in the book until about 20 chapters later when the protagonists reach the more populous areas (something I noticed on a reread and was quite surprising). Rand and company at this point don’t even know which country they are in.
Ah, how do you solve a problem like
MariaNynaeve.I remember hating her in the begining, and later on, she was my favorite character. The funny thing was, it wasn’t what she did that changed… she is an amazingly consistent character. Almost static. She does grow, but not out of character. She doesn’t really mellow until BS got a hold of her. So what changed?
My perspective changed. As a teenager, I viewed her EXACTLY like Mat. She was my annoying, bossy older sister. I had two of those, actually, a decade and more older than me. As a father and a grown man, however, I recognize her instincts and admire her.
This is, in my opinion, what RJ was best at. Even the smallest of his characters exist in three dimensions. They are real, fleshed out people. My perspective on all the characters has changed radically as I changed, and could view them from a different angle.
This paragraph:
Hmmm. I have to wonder if the reason we “judged” Nynaeve here is less because she is a woman, and more because of what being a woman means. We want men to be assertive because that is their real-life role. That is not bias. We want women to be compassionate, kind, nurturing, etc., because that is their real-life role. That is not bias either. Bias is when we say that women can’t or shouldn’t be assertive, or that men can’t or shouldn’t be compassionate and kind. Of course, both can be either, and that is how it should be, but the reaction to Nynaeve is less against her gender than it is against how her actions grate against her natural gifts as a woman.
IMHO
I wasn’t really a Nynaeve hater at this point (or later, either) but I definitely disliked her at first, even though it’s really just all part of RJ’s gender flip throughout the series. In later books, especially when I was listening to the audiobooks, I found Nynaeve’s internal monologue hilariously opposite her external words and actions. And I feel that Nynaeve of all the Super Girls made the most consistent improvement in her character throughout the entire series. Contrast her with Egwene, who I thought was up and down like a yo-yo in her beliefs and actions, and Elayne, who I thought never changed a great deal throughout the series. Min, of course, was awesome from the beginning, so she didn’t need to improve as a character.
I do take exception to Leigh’s statement about the “parallel (and equal) power structure of the Council and the Women’s Circle”. Definitely another part of the gender flip, but I thought the Women’s Circle ran roughshod over the Council whenever they felt like it, much as did many of the women over their husbands.
@29, the Whitecloaks are presented as a thoroughly wicked organization (and deservedly so given their actions) but RJ did a great job fleshing out the individual Whitecloaks we get to spend time with, from Geogram to Pedron to Dain.
Hate to harp on this again, but my biggest pet-peeve with A Memory of Light — this interlude here in Baerlon is the ONLY time that Mat and Min ever meet each other before Min staggers into the command tent in the middle of Tarmon Gaidon, and they chat like they’re old friends. Do Mat and Min even speak a single word to each other in this section? It infuriates me.
Not only was Nynaeve my favorite character in the series cover to cover, but her personality made her the character that reminded me most of the type of women I find interesting in real life as well. The two obviously intersect and it resulted in a lot of Nynaeve defense from me to fellow readers over the years.
Sorry for the double post but what I meant to finish saying before I got pulled away was that since I felt an immediate pull towards Nynaeve so it made perfect sense that Lan should be attracted to her. Instead of a “why her” feel I had an “of course he’s into her” feeling that I only realized later was not common in many sections of the fandom.
39. neverspeakawordagain
Nice point, I had missed that completely.
Re: Nynaeve
What made me dislike Nynaeve in this scene is that she is completely out of her depth, yet she still presumes to dictate the course of action. Trollocs have attacked her village. She has no idea why they came, how they came, what else might come next, nor how to guard against it. Yet she comes to argue with Moiraine and try to take the boys back.
The smart thing to do would be to insist on joining the party to help take care of them, then keep her ears open and try to judge just how far Moiraine can be trusted – much easier to do if you don’t antagonize her at first.
I disliked Nynaeve until TFOH, when her character was subjected to a lot of pressure, and eventually changed quite a bit, from hard and brittle to strong but more supple. What made this particularly interesting was that her conflict was not really foreshadowed early on. Rand struggles against his destiny, Mat is a scoundrel but does his duty, Perrin always does his duty and thinks of little else, Egwene is always eager to become something new. But Nynaeve’s conflict came as a surprise to me – much like her appearance here. I was certain she was just part of the background, like the mayor, until she showed up here.
Fun quote which I only noticed on re-re-re-read:
@39 – I think they met again at Falme and must have had a chance to get to know each other off-screen. Also, don’t forget that Mat knew of Rand’s closeness with Min for a long time, and had even seen Rand and Min doing the deed, by means of taveren-vision. It isn’t too far out of character for Mat and Min to not act like strangers.
When first reading the book, I didn’t like or dislike any given character, not until Mat started to get maddeningly (no pun intended) annoying. Thankfully he managed to get turned around and become likeable again; however, I digress: The characters were just getting fleshed out, so I just went along with the story trying to keep track of the characters and their traits. I remember being surprised when Nynaeve showed up at the Inn, because I didn’t realize she was a core character. I truly knew nothing about the books when I started reading them last year, so having Nynaeve show up was a plot twist to me.
As I am rereading the books, it is becoming obvious to me how many hints of future happenings there are along the way. Plus, at some time reading the books, I had completely forgotten Moiraine ever had a staff. Not sure why the staff was abandoned as a prop by Jordan.
In the meantime, I must resist reading ahead! It is really difficult to put the book down after reading the two chapters for the ReRead Redux!
@39:
I have a best friend. Several of his girlfriends have treated me with a similar level of familiarity upon FIRST meeting. Much more so second and third meetings. Sometimes you can just hit it off with people, and having a common friend can make the new person feel like an old friend.
JonathanLevy @42
Joining the party was Nynaeve’s intent. Or at least her 2nd option if she couldn’t get the boys, excuse me, young men back. True to form however, just asking nicely is far beneath her.
Hey guys,
Sorry, but owing to a whole host of reasons, there will be no Redux post today.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving, and we’ll be back next week!
I know – you are depressed that the Saints lost and can’t deal with a re-read post. There there. They’ll probably still win the NFC South Division, don’t you worry….
Just kidding. Have a nice T-day.
Rob
OMGwhatamIgonnadothisafternoon? Go grocery shopping, I guess. Thanks for making an attempt, Leigh.
Well, I was cheering for the Saints last night, FWIW (mostly ’cause I’m a Steelers fan).
Y’all have a great Thanksgiving if you celebrate that particular holiday, and even if you don’t. We’re going to smoke a bird this year (in the smoker, not rolled up in Zig-Zags).
@43: They made a big deal at the beginning of The Dragon Reborn about how Mat was so sick that they immediately set off for Tar Valon that very day. He and Min didn’t have any onscreen time there, and they couldn’t have possibly had more than a minute or two of offscreen time together either, since Min was tied up with Rand and Mat was being dragged off by Verin and the girls.
I don’t know. I know it’s not a huge thing, but it’s a thing. I think the reason it bugged me was that before A Memory of Light, I ran through all the different combinations of characters and how long it had been since they were in the same place at the same time, and Mat and Min won, since they weren’t onscreen together anywhere except Baerlon and they couldn’t have been together offscreen for more than five minutes total. And it was just jarring that they acted like best buds.
They were in Baerlon for about 48 hours, correct? Maybe longer? Min was around that whole time, for the most part. We only have one meal accounted for in that entire time. So there is a LOT of opportunity for Min and Mat to have been together. Regardless, see my post @45. I’ve had this happen to me several times.
Happy Thanksgiving Leigh and to all of those who are celebrating this Thursday!
I will look forward to the post next week.
In the meantime, there is family, food and football for the next few days!!
@52 … f*ing snow here in the Northeast!
Interestingly, I was one of those who always liked Nynaeve from the start. Don’t get me wrong I did find her annoying at times, or rolled my eyes at her, but I also thought she was funny as hell, realistic, had her heart in the right place, and was a valuable person to have around. Basically, the only way I disliked her seriously at first was because of her being an obstruction to the plot, once that was resolved I was fine with her. In fact in this scene here, while I was annoyed she was holding the group up and possibly putting them in danger, I was also annoyed at Moiraine for not adding her to the group immediately, like she did Thom and Egwene.
Because as hypocritial and bossy as she could be, I saw the value of a woman who was strong-willed, brave, took no guff from anyone, was a healer and a tracker, and an incipient channeler. (I guessed she was one as soon as we found out about what an amazing healer she was, how the previous Wisdom made a point of noticing this, and how she in turn acted toward Egwene.) Maybe I was just trained from other books to like strong, take-charge female characters, but I wanted them to add her to the group right away. Especially once Min revealed she was “part of it.”
As for whether they would be in more or less danger with her rather than Moiraine…that depends. Moiraine, being an Aes Sedai, would draw Shadowspawn to her, but she also has the knowledge to destroy them. Nynaeve doesn’t have that knowledge, but her power is also weak enough at this point it probably wouldn’t draw Shadowspawn. However Ishamael would have kept haunting the boys’ dreams and probably sending Shadowspawn after them that way…so I guess the final tally is they are safer with Moiraine, but only by a little. They’re safer still with both of them.
Anyway, even as she was obstructing things I still admired how Nynaeve stood up to them. And I also loved that Rand believed in her. Particularly since it shows where the belief he has in her near the end of the series came from. And she in turn showed her concern for him in how she rushed to reassure him about being Tam’s son and from the Two Rivers. It’s a touching moment. “I left to save you. I only came along to protect you.”
As LOTR-ish as the scene in the common room was, I always liked it. It was a nice calm before the storm, a chance to have fun and let loose before things get far more dark and dangerous, and everyone is forced to grow up and deal with complexity and cruelty and opposition like never before. Plus seeing the boys dance with Nynaeve and Moiraine was a hoot! And then how it segues into the sudden appearance of the Fade in the kitchen was rather effective. That bit reminded me again of LOTR of course, with the Rider showing up in the street and attacking Merry, but what happened to the inn was rather different…
I had to say that Moiraine’s decision, while practical and really the only one they could do, chilled me at the time. I didn’t hate her for it, I knew she was right, I just wish it could be otherwise. It just made me realize, if I didn’t already, how serious this quest (and world) was. Of course the fact she said she’d have money and help sent back to Master Fitch does mitigate that somewhat.
The scene with Rand comforting Egwene, like any this early in the book, is haunting and tragic now…
Nothing to say about the Whitecloaks that hasn’t already been said; they suck, and it was awesome seeing Moiraine deliver the smackdown to them. We can just be grateful that Bornhald didn’t see Perrin there, or else when he encountered him later in the Two Rivers he’d have added what happened in Baerlon to his “crimes.” (Though apparently Dain never got to report about this to his father, since no one in Geofram’s camp recognized Lan or Moiraine when they rescued Perrin and Egwene.)
As for Rogosh, that is indeed rather odd, since there were so many references packed into WOT, but it’s true Jordan did make up names which were original, characters and events that weren’t based on mythology. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
@7 Mary Beth: Well said.
@8 AndrewHB: Good point LOL! So then it comes down to whether by the end of the series those traits are ones people like, don’t mind any more, or can overlook because of her good traits.
@13 Herb3491: Amen.
@23 CireNaes: Good point. As Darth Rand himself put it, he knew she was still trying to manipulate him, but unlike Cadsuane she was doing it to help him, because she cared.
@25 birgit: Possibly. More likely just a bit of sly Jordan foreshadowing.
@28 AnotherAndrew: Originally the leaf icon was used for Nynaeve as well. Eventually this got phased out. I presume it was used because it being a plant hinted at Nynaeve’s ability with healing herbs. That and Avendesora came from the chora trees, which were said to have healing properties.
The Hunt being for the very item which would normally be used in a hunt is just another clever irony of Jordan’s. Though it should also be noted that once found, it was then intended to be used to call an actual hunt as well, this one for the Shadow and its creatures. And there’s nothing to say someone who becomes a hero while hunting the Horn can’t end up bound to it.
I’m pretty sure Morgase thinks or says something about why she allowed the Whitecloaks in Andor later while in Amador, something to the effect that allowing them some power kept them from trying to take over and gain all power, as they had in Amadicia and tried to do in Altara. They’re strong enough to be feared, so the only way to combat them is through some appeasement.
@29 amdionne: Chalk it up to Jordan feeling the same way most people do about fundys.
@37 BillinHI: I quite agree with your assessment of the Supergirls (and Min).
@39 neverspeakaword: And as has been brought up before, they were together in Falme and it’s quite likely they spoke between him falling ill and going back to Tar Valon with the girls and Verin while she stayed with Moiraine and Rand. Apparently though it’s a matter of opinion whether this did happen, and if so whether it was enough to justify their chumminess later.
@42 JonathanLevy: I don’t think I expected her either, but once she did show up somehow I wasn’t that surprised. Not so much because of how important it was to her to look out for Emond’s Fielders (especially Egwene) but because she was so unique, such a strong-willed and memorable character, that I found it hard to believe Jordan would bother creating her like that if she wasn’t going to be important. Of course she could have shown up when Perrin went back in TSR (but I didn’t know at this point the narrative would return there), and there were plenty of other developed characters we would never meet again or if so not for a long time, like Bran, Tam and Abell…but still, she stood out to me. So I sort of did expect to see her again.
Also: LOL at the quote, I forgot about that too! And isn’t that the only time Min ever interacts with him?? Since I don’t recall her doing so in Salidar.
@44 WDWParksGal: I imagine she had one to emphasize the Gandalf parallel, since Jordan was deliberately echoing LOTR at this point, and she lost it once he moved beyond that frame of reference. It could also be because at this point he hadn’t worked out yet how the Power worked with items, and once he did (ter’angreal and the like) he realized the staff made no sense and so it was never mentioned again or explained. What I am curious about is where she got it and how she used it the way she did. She didn’t have it in NS, so sometime in those intervening twenty years… *chalks another one up for the encyclopedia, hopefully*
@50 neverspeakaword: Someone already pointed out that Mat didn’t get really sick until the very start of TDR. There was time between the books to meet. Steven Cooper’s timeline suggests only a day passes between the Battle of Falme and the girls and Mat departing for Tar Valon, but even a day could be enough time for them to hang out together. I seem to recall them saying Mat had been celebrating and dicing before falling ill, which implies some passage of time during which he was fine.
@54 macster: Thanks for the clarification on the staff. I found it odd she used it as a power transfer then lost it somewhere along the way.
@53 RobMRobM: I have seen how the NE is digging out of snow. In NE OH we’ve had snow, freezing rain, the meltdown to total sogginess, frozen ground and now snow on the way. Of course, we haven’t experienced anything close to Buffalo or the NE. Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving!
@54 Macster: The funny thing about the name Rogosh, I read it as if the name was rogueish. Senior citizen eyesight I guess. Anyhow, I looked at the name thinking it was taken from rogue. I could just see the arrogant Hunter of the Horn with his head held high, his shiny black boot on a stone while standing on the edge of a cliff overlooking the land below, contemplating his next move, while one fist is knuckled to his right hip and his left hand is over his eyes to block the sun. In my mind’s eye he was more interested in having people notice his grandeur rather than what he could observe from his perch!
Well, I’m late again, though I suppose that’s okay with the break in posting! I can’t possibly let a thread mainly all about Nynaeve slip by me. For me, Nynaeve is a fantastic character and only just misses out to Faile on claiming my top spot. It’s her bossiness, her stubbornness, her abrasiveness and all of that that makes me love Nynaeve. Yes, she’s flawed, yes, there’s great problems with outlook (eg the sexism) – but that’s what makes a great character. She’s good at heart and we see her struggle with herself a fair bit through the series, and all those internal struggles are what make a good character for me!
I think it is important that she’s older than the others when they set off. Sure, the boys are in their late teens and Egwene has just been officially named an adult, but Nynaeve is around five years their senior, which is a significant amount of life experience at that point. Add to that her position of responsibility, and she’s definitely approaching the ‘adventure’ from somewhere entirely different. The boys and Egwene are still properly in the process of growing up – they are still searching for themselves and their place in life. Nynaeve, however, is supposed to have overcome all that. She’s certain she knows who she is and she knows her place in life, but over the course of the series she has plenty of cause to question that. Her story is one of the most interesting and engaging for me because of the way Nynaeve thinks about herself, and she’s the character who reminds me most of myself.
(The most obvious example I can think of off the top of my head is her slowly giving in to wearing all the pretty dresses, and the trouble she has with that. All the way through, one of my greatest terrors was that she would cut her braid. Throughout all her changes, she still had this one symbol of herself and I was terrified she’d cut it and, in my view, that would have been a step too far – not just her character developing and growing as she encountered new circumstances, but losing who she truly was and where she’d come from. So, when she eventually did lose her braid, I was rather sad, but thought it was actually quite perfect. I probably have too many thoughts about Nynaeve’s braid… I’ll abandon this point till the re-re-read of Towers of Midnight!)
Despite all this, however, my reaction on first meeting Nynaeve was quite different. Initially, I never considered that she would be much more than a background character. And then when she turns up here, I truly thought she was one of the bad guys. I was really quite certain of it. So when her tracking skills are noted here, I didn’t think ‘yay, capable woman doing traditionally male things and look how Lan appreciates it’ or ‘pfft, annoying woman’, I thought ‘she has used some kind of evil magics to follow them, of course’. Not, I hasten to add, because I don’t think women could track well; I’d have thought the same if she was male. My reasoning was:
– The dark hair, harshness, air of knowing much more than others about secret subjects, and her name all gave me an evil-witch kind of vibe
– It seemed to good to be true that anyone could have followed them like that
– The way her whole catch-up story was told felt too much like ‘here, I am telling you my well thought out but totally fabricated story’.
– Min says ‘she’s part of it too and it all got crazier when she came’ (paraphrased) – I read that as ‘because she’s totally going to mess things up and betray/seriously harm you’
– The way they’re all so scared of her arrival (I realise now that’s because of her position of authority and because they’re still quite young but I hadn’t quite grasped that then)
– I just couldn’t see what role she was supposed to play if she wasn’t a baddie. So later, when she gets a pov, I was even more surprised, because it was quite clear she was exactly what she said she was.
(Despite my evil-witch vibe though, I did not peg that she was a channeller until Moiraine told her so. And even then I thought Moiraine was lying to keep Nynaeve occupied.)
So, I think I lost my point somewhere along the way, but go Nynaeve! I didn’t think she was bad because she disagreed with Moiraine; Moiraine kind of annoyed me. And now, re-reading knowing she’s not at all evil, I think Nynaeve’s excellent here.
57. Sian17
It’s always interesting to read how someone else sees another character. I liked Nynaeve in TFOH and LOC; less so in the other books. However, while reading your post all my thoughts on Nynaeve were drowned out by one little line which made my throat seize up and my eyes try to claw their way out of their sockets, as it happens to be a quote of the machin shin.
I feel somewhat frustrated by the current discussion on Nyneave because I can’t remember most of my impressions of her in the early chapters. E.g. I can’t remember if I was surprised when she showed up. I am pretty sure I conceived her as an obstruction to “our” guys and was very annoyed by her “mission statement” to bring the youths back to “safety” in TR.
JL @@@@@ 58
I thought someone would jump on that, lol… on a completely unrelated note, I totally love Egwene but she is just pushed off the top of my list by Semirhage- just as Churchil is second behind Pol Pot for my favourite 20th Century personality ;)
macster @@@@@ 54
If it was a choice of either Moiraine or Nyneave, the youths would’ve been much safer at this stage with the AS. Even if Lan wasn’t there. To start with, Nyn would’ve brought them back to the TR. The Shadow agents find them easily enough without the need to feel Moiraine’s Power. And what is Nyn going to do vs a Myrdraal, Trollocs, etc… yank her braid and glare at them- e.g. she has no clue about that flying crooning creature (nor have I apparently, what’s it’s damned name)?
The mere state of living, travelling, coping with the basic necessities out in the big wide world outside the TR is a challenge to her. IIRC she hasn’t even heard of the White Cloaks, though she had a few believes in common with them…
Faile is one of my favorites too, although below Verin and Nyneave :) So I was actually kind of excited to see another Faile fan.
@@@@@ Sian17 Better late than never! I was never a fan of Faile. She seemed to rub me the wrong way, jumping to conclusions without bothering to find out the facts first. I’m amazed her marriage was as close as it was considering Perrin never knew when she would fly off the handle without a seconds notice. If I had to live with her my nerves would be shot!
59. ValMar
I’ll take Pol Pot over Faile any day. :)
Re: Faile
Faile was pretty good when she was introduced in TDR. There was a nice short story arc where Perrin rescued her in TAR and realized he loved her. Unfortunately, that theme was repeated a little too often throughout the rest of the series.
Faile was also pretty good in TSR, giving the country bumpkin a bit of regal spine.
But post-TSR? Let’s just that she was best in TFoH – and leave it at that.
Lisamarie @60 – I’m always glad to know I’m not the only one! The love for Faile is so thin on the ground, I always feel I must show my support at every opportunity.
Just as with Nynaeve, it’s all her flaws that make me enjoy Faile’s character so much. And I love trying to figure her out. Once Faile turns up in the Reread Redux, there’ll be plenty of wordy analysis and defence from me!
JonathanLevy @62 – I turned each page of TFoH desperate to see Faile or Perrin’s name appear… But I do kind of agree about the rescuing theme being repeated a bit too much. But despite repeatedly ending up in a damsel in distress situation, Faile is never, in herself, a damsel in distress, and I like the contrast. But anyway I must shut up now while I still can! Plenty of posts Winter’s Heart to Knife of Dreams to defend this…
Leigh et al
Rognvald Eysteinsson, The EARL of More in Norway see Wikipedia for details, could be Rogosh of Talmour, he was a legendary figure in the icelandic Sagas, and the Mythical/legendary progenitor of the Dukes of Normandy, and therefore the English and various european Royal Houses
JonathanLevy @62 said “But post-TSR? Let’s just that she was best in TFoH – and leave it at that.”
Nice. I had a smile on my face when I read that line. While I agree with you, I will acknowledge that her character grew up after her rescue in Malden. IMO, she was much more bearable post-rescue. I am not sure the pre-Malden Faile couuld have co-existed with Berelain in ToM or survive her ordeal in AMoL.
If I had my druthers, Faile would have been killed rather than taken prisoner. Berelain would have been there to support Perrin. Perrin and Berelain would have then eventually fallen and love. (This would have made the Galad/Berelain pairing non-existent.)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
@54 et al – Snow wasn’t too bad in our part of suburban Boston – expected 6-10 and got 3. Hope all had a nice turkey day (at least those who celebrate it in the U.S.).
Re Faile – she began well and she ended well but the middle just PLODed.
Yeah.. Faile was hilarious at first, but the crazy Saldaean shenanigans in between got old after a while.
@65 – oh, man, that made me throw up in my mouth a bit. I can’t STAND Berelain. Please don’t take this as some kind of slut-shaming prudishness – it’s not about that at all. But one of the biggest deal breakers for me (in both fiction and real life), personality wise, is a person who does not respect another person’s wishes in matters of sex/romance. Once somebody has said they’re not interested, that’s it, done. Don’t try to pursue or tempt or convince or manipulate or seduce or whatever other word you want to put on it. Just…you’re done. (Friendship is fine, but only if undertaken with the understanding that it may never move past that, and being okay with that.)
As for Faile and the PLOD, I found Perrin’s parts a lot more boring (although I like Perrin too) – my problem with it was never with the Faile parts.
Yes, she has flaws, and in fact, in real life, a relationship like that would probably crash and burn because that kind of intensity isn’t really healthy long term, and people like that in real life (at least in my experience) usually aren’t self aware enough to actually try to mature and grow. I think Faile DOES begin to change a bit though, without losing her core personality. So, I like her and think she’s an interesting character. Plus, I guess I just like bold, opinionated women. That said, I have no desire to be in a relationship that involves lots of yelling, slapping and fighting so I don’t really agree with her on that count, haha. I do come from an Italian family so it’s not alien to me, though (aside from the slapping)!
65. AndrewHB
I also fancied a couple of alternate endings for Berelain/Perrin.
Option #1 was that when hunting for Faile, Perrin finds what seems to him to be unequivocal evidence that she is dea – which he accepts. When he spends the night in Berelain’s tent… things happen. Then he finds out she’s alive after all. It would give his desperate drive to save her a different meaning – he’s also trying to atone for his actions.
Option #2 was to have both Faile and Galad die in the Last Battle, leaving Perrin wounded under Berelain’s care. To get this to work you’d need to revise the chapters in which Berelain gives her excuses for her behavior (“Uh…umm… the Dragon made me do it?”).
Make her start pursuing Perrin as a ploy for advancement, but as she observes him trying to rescue his wife, and leading his men, she grows to admire and love him. She ceases pursuing him, quietly and painfully accepting that he will never love her. Frustrated and weary, she meets Galad and is smitten, but he dies before it can blossom into love.
After the Last Battle, fate puts the now-available Perrin in her care – where she might have had a chance at him if she hadn’t been so callous back in TSR. Now she has no reason to think he’ll even look at her twice – but in the last line from Perrin’s last POV he notices that her perfume is uncannily like Faile’s.
——————————–
Both these options would have to take into account the final purpose of Perrin’s unreasonably juggernautish love for Faile, which I only realized when re-reading the scene where he breaks Lanfear’s Compulsion to save Rand/Moiraine/Nynaeve. It is precisely because his love for Faile is so uncompromising – plus the fact that he is in TAR – which lets him break that Compulsion.
@69 – excellently put in your final paragraph, even though I must disagree with your alternatives. I suppose I can understand why many people don’t like Faile, but I cannot understand why that makes Berelain a wonderful alternative!
@68 – I totally agree, I find Berelain’s untiring persual really unacceptable. However, though, I suppose that that is her culture, in the same way all the yelling and so on is Faile’s, and she thinks she’s doing the right thing, so I can kind of forgive her it in a way. But, as far as I ever saw, she never really addressed the fact that she and Perrin were coming from completely different places, whereas Faile did. Plus, Perrin and Faile might have had a severe culture clash, but their relationship was based on both of them actually really quite liking the other. Perrin and Berelain shared nothing with no indication of any real attraction, so the idea of them ending up together just really doesn’t work for me!
And I agree re the so-called PLOD – it was Perrin’s one-track-mind and increasing mopiness that really made it start to drag (although I actually mainly enjoyed the whole thing anyway), but somehow Faile gets the blame for this.
I also agree about real life, but then fiction is supposed to be kind of an extreme version of real life (at least in my view) so I’m happy to take it! That scene in Towers of Midnight where Faile wants to do things a Two Rivers way was one I’d so longed for and justified my faith in Faile to myself!
The only thing good about Berelain is that she’s not Faile.
JonathanLevy @71
That and the plunging necklines.
re Mat vs. Min – I know we have very few scenes where Mat and Min are actually together and exchange dialog, but I’m thinking later on when all the colors are swirling in Mat’s head and he sees Rand and Min many many times, that has got to count for something. He obviously knows they are in an intimate relationship. And I’m also assuming Min has had visions of Mat as well and I think those visions bring her closer to the people she reads and lends a sense of familiarity. That may be a stretch, however,
re Faile vs. Berelain – One of the things that I really like about these characters is that they do make me uncomfortable. Berelain’s pursuit of Perrin is so single-minded and it’s completely politically motivated, and somewhat revenge-motivated since the fight with Faile. Faile’s continuing to fight for Perrin to me is completely understandable. She comes from a political family but in this instance, she is in love and she knows how down to earth Perrin is. Of course she is going to fight for him using any manner she can.
re Berelain vs. Perrin – I was actually really put off when Perrin spent the night in Berelain’s tent. That seemed just so unlike his character; regardless of how devastated he was that Faile had been taken, I just don’t see him laying down in Berelain’s bed and spending the night. But I guess we’ll get to that when we get to that.
@56 WDWParksGal: LOL!
@57 Sian17: Well said, totally agree on Nynaeve. And I know exactly what you mean about her braid loss–when she finally does lose it, it’s only as part of the Aes Sedai test (where you have to show you want that more than anything else)…but at the same time, not only does she absolutely remain herself in how she handles the test (still performing all the weaves and staying on task even as she gets angry/rushes to the rescue, being so focused on healing and saving people), but it’s very clear at the end she still has retained who she is–both in how she stands up to the Aes Sedai and in how she refuses to let go of her love for Lan. Even if the braid itself is gone, what it stood for undoubtedly remains.
Also, her name is indeed quite “witchy” since Nynaeve is also a variant name for Vivianne (the Lady of the Lake, very much a mystical being) in Arthurian canon and for Nimue (who in some versions of the stories was a genuine villain or at least had it in for Merlin).
@64 TheWeatherman: Fascinating! That could very well be the reference Jordan was making. Although I wouldn’t put it past him to have also been referencing the Blaes and Dunsinane which Leigh mentioned; even if they are obscure, Jordan is not above obscure references. Plus Blaes is Arthurian (and TEotW is full of Arthurian references) and Dunsinane was the inspiration for Tolkien having the Ents and Fangorn come to Helm’s Deep (and TEotW is *also* full of Tolkien references).
Dunsinsin… What about Dulcinea del Toboso?
Regarding Nynaeve – I have always loved her even with all her mule-headed times, she is such an awesome example of a powerful independent female character. And I just love how she someone Rand always trusts even in the height of his madness.
I have to say I am not a Faile fan however. Not to say that I think Berelain is any better, but her way of handling the whole situation and just not COMMUNICATING WITH PERRIN infuriated me. And just the whole culture clash of Faile v Perrin and her abrasiveness never gelled with me. At the same time I was always frustrated with Perrin during that entire arc as well – anytime a Perrin centric set of chapters came up in those later books I would groan and struggle to get through them. Hope they wont be such a slog on this re read…
Regarding Moiraine’s staff – did you guys really miss that? She got rid of it after their trip through the Ways when it got all blackened as they were trying to escape Machin Shin.